Discussion:
Terri Schindler Schiavo
(too old to reply)
Randall Bart
2003-09-23 02:05:46 UTC
Permalink
http://www.nationalreview.com/comment/comment-smith091603.asp
(see also http://www.nationalreview.com/comment/comment-smith090503.asp
and http://www.terrisfight.org/)

September 16, 2003, 12:40 p.m.
Terri Schiavo’s Life and Death
Time gained.

By Wesley J. Smith

September 11, 2003, was to be the beginning of the end for Terri Schindler
Schiavo. Last Thursday, a judge was scheduled to order the intentional
dehydration of the cognitively impaired Florida woman, at the request of
her husband. Mercifully, however, the law got in the way. (For more
background on the case, see here http://www.terrisfight.org/)

Judge George W. Greer of the Sixth Judicial Circuit, in Clearwater,
Florida, has repeatedly made it clear that he intends to order Terri's
death by dehydration; even though her husband has refused to provide his
wife any rehabilitation or therapy for more than ten years; even though
renowned doctors have sworn under penalty of perjury that her condition
can be improved with proper medical intervention; even though the husband
who wants her dead could benefit financially and personally from her
demise — he plans to marry his fiancé with whom he has begun having
children, but he can't while his wife is still living; even though Terri's
blood family wants to care for her the rest of her life; even though a
guardian ad litem for Terri recommended against the dehydration; even
though Governor Jeb Bush wrote a letter requesting him to reconsider.

In a tragic irony, September 11 was supposed to be the death-ordering
date. But St. Petersburg, Florida attorney Pat Anderson, attorney for
Terri's family, may have struck legal gold in her and her clients' heroic
struggle to save Terri's life. She may have found a legal argument that
should, at least for now, prevent Terri's demise.

This is the gist of Anderson's approach:
Ending a patient's life by dehydration involves not one, but two, discreet
acts:
(a) Act # 1 is removing/clamping off the feeding tube. Michael Schiavo
requested, and has received, the right to this act. Alas, due to "right to
die" advocacy, killing a person through intentional dehydration because
they are cognitively disabled is legal.
(b) Act # 2 involves the deliberate withholding of food and water by
mouth. Michael did not ask for the right to do this act.
The provision of food and water by mouth is not a medical treatment but is
humane care, and thus cannot be withdrawn or withheld legally from a
patient who can assimilate nutrition and hydration.
A speech pathologist, who has successfully weaned four cognitively
disabled patients off of feeding tubes in the last month, testified that
Terri "has a good or excellent prognosis for being able to be taken off
her feeding tube."
Under Florida law, the right to rehabilitation is retained by the ward,
and not delegated to the guardian.
Under Florida law, neither the guardian — Michael — nor the court — Judge
Greer — has the right to harm the ward;
Absent some pre-incapacity expression by Terri to waive the basic right to
food and water and the right to rehabilitative therapy, the legal rights
to them must be honored and enforced. Testimony that she would not want to
be maintained by "tubes" would clearly not be enough since no tubes would
be involved in her care.
Terri has not been given the opportunity to receive rehabilitation or to
be weaned off the feeding tube so that she can take food and water by
mouth. Indeed, Michael has required that she just lay in bed for more than
ten years.
Hence, while a Florida Court of Appeals ordered the removal of Terri's
tube-feeding an order with which Judge Greer seems eager to comply, it
cannot be done in such a way as to "harm" Terri, e.g. without giving her a
chance to survive by taking food and water by mouth.

Terri should be allowed reasonable rehabilitation attempts before Judge
Greer orders her dehydrated to death. Refusing this clearly humane and
merciful request would be to intentionally cause Terri harm. Some might
even argue that refusing Terri any chance to live would be a non-voluntary
euthanasia homicide.

Judge Greer may just be listening. Rather than ordering the food tube
immediately clamped as had been widely anticipated, he has taken the
matter under advisement. Greer is expected to render his decision later
this week.

If Pat Anderson's motion is denied, I know she will appeal. And well she
should. Her approach is not a ploy to stall for time; it is a serious and
credible legal argument that deserves careful consideration. During any
appeal, Terri's dehydration should be put on hold until these crucial
legal issues that affect each and every cognitively disabled person on a
feeding tube in Florida are sorted out.

If Greer orders the dehydration to proceed without giving Terri a chance
to rehabilitate, he will have demonstrated that he views her as a less
than complete person. In such case, Floridians should begin to ponder
their legal and political options against Judge Greer (recalling him or
voting him out of office).

Now, about Governor Jeb Bush: When I recently wrote about Terri's case, I
reported that Bush had received more than 27,000 e-mails and other
communications demanding that he intervene to save Terri's life. I also
reported that he had responded by writing a letter to Judge Greer
requesting that he appoint a guardian ad litem.

Gov. Bush meanwhile has received up to 34,000 citizen communications. The
governor, however, has so far refused to do more than write a letter. He
continues to refuse his administration's formal intervention or make her a
ward of the state — or even explain why Florida law prevents him from at
least trying.

Fortunately, Judge Greer's hesitation and Pat Anderson's advocacy give
people concerned about Schiavo's case more time to continue pressuring
Governor Bush to stand in the breach. Here's the 411:

Governor Jeb Bush
Florida Capitol Building, PL-05
Tallahassee, Florida 32399-1050
850-488-7146
850-487-2564 Fax
E-Mail: ***@eog.state.fl.us

— Wesley J. Smith is a senior fellow at the Discovery Institute and an
attorney and consultant for the International Task Force on Euthanasia and
Assisted Suicide. His revised and updated Forced Exit: The Slippery Slope
From Assisted Suicide to Legalized Murder was recently published by Spence
Publishing.

http://www.nationalreview.com/comment/comment-smith091603.asp
(see also http://www.nationalreview.com/comment/comment-smith090503.asp
and http://www.terrisfight.org/)
--
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exploratory
2003-09-26 20:12:15 UTC
Permalink
Euthanasia in this instance is not only the RIGHT thing to do:
it is THE LAW! Anti-euthanasia activists and lawyers are deliberately
trying to interfere with and create havoc with this judge's order
and the legal system in Florida. They should be sent to prison for
a long time. After all, quality of life means absolutely nothing
to them. So prison will be a lot of fun for them. If it is not,
then NO one should have sympathy for these anti-euthanasia lunatics.
They are not qualified to think clearly and scientifically.
Randall Bart
2003-09-27 06:05:50 UTC
Permalink
'Twas 26 Sep 2003 13:12:15 -0700 when all alt.support.tourette stood in
Post by exploratory
it is THE LAW! Anti-euthanasia activists and lawyers are deliberately
trying to interfere with and create havoc with this judge's order
and the legal system in Florida.
Fascinating. This is someone who has never posted here before. When
someone's first post to a newsgroup is of a relatively controversial
nature, does not ask questions, and does not tell of personal experience,
that person can be ignored. What we have here is a grepping loon (though
most grepping loons now use Google rather than grep). Searching in
Google, I find no evidence he has ever talked about Terri Schiavo before.
I conclude therefore he saw the word "euthanasia" and rabidly replied.

From studying Exploratory on Google, I discover he is a vegetarian. He is
opposed to killing any animal, but he makes an exception for human beings.
Hitler was a vegetarian too.

I am in favor of euthanasia myself. But as anti-euthanasia activists
often point out, euthanasia is a slippery slope. I favor euthanasia in
three circumstances:

1) The person wants to die (and I am for letting people kill themselves
in many cases where the do-gooders want to talk the person into living).
2) The person is no longer competent but while competent clearly
expressed a desire to die if they became incompetent.
3) The person is in a persistent vegetative state where they no longer
are experiencing life.

In the case of Terri Schiavo, the husband, lawyer, and judge are claiming
she is in number 3. This is false. They are simply trying to kill
someone who has no value to them. They are Nazis and should all be
arrested and charged with attempted murder.
--
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bluemoon
2003-09-27 12:21:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by Randall Bart
'Twas 26 Sep 2003 13:12:15 -0700 when all alt.support.tourette stood in
Post by exploratory
it is THE LAW! Anti-euthanasia activists and lawyers are deliberately
trying to interfere with and create havoc with this judge's order
and the legal system in Florida.
Fascinating. This is someone who has never posted here before. When
someone's first post to a newsgroup is of a relatively controversial
nature, does not ask questions, and does not tell of personal experience,
that person can be ignored. What we have here is a grepping loon (though
most grepping loons now use Google rather than grep). Searching in
Google, I find no evidence he has ever talked about Terri Schiavo before.
I conclude therefore he saw the word "euthanasia" and rabidly replied.
From studying Exploratory on Google, I discover he is a vegetarian. He is
opposed to killing any animal, but he makes an exception for human beings.
Hitler was a vegetarian too.
I am in favor of euthanasia myself. But as anti-euthanasia activists
often point out, euthanasia is a slippery slope. I favor euthanasia in
1) The person wants to die (and I am for letting people kill themselves
in many cases where the do-gooders want to talk the person into living).
2) The person is no longer competent but while competent clearly
expressed a desire to die if they became incompetent.
3) The person is in a persistent vegetative state where they no longer
are experiencing life.
In the case of Terri Schiavo, the husband, lawyer, and judge are claiming
she is in number 3. This is false. They are simply trying to kill
someone who has no value to them. They are Nazis and should all be
arrested and charged with attempted murder.
--
RB |\ © Randall Bart
nr |\ Please reply without spam I LOVE YOU 1-917-715-0831
dt ||\ http://RandallBart.com/ Ånåheim Ångels 2002 World Chåmps!
a |/ Multiple sclerosis: http://www.cbc.ca/webone/alison/
This is such a heartwrenching case. It'is local to me, so I've been hearing
about this for over 10 years, and I agree with your assessment of this.
Assisted suicide and starving someone to death are so far apart on the
scale, that the fact that this has been bantied around in the courts for so
long, should tell the husband, lawyers and judges, that they must be very
careful. To me, this is just not assisted suicide, it's speeding up the
life insurance settlement that her husband will get, which is around
750,000, if I remember correctly.

My heart aches for this family.
Kimber177
2003-09-29 14:05:15 UTC
Permalink
Subject: Re: Terri Schindler Schiavo
From: "bluemoon"
This is such a heartwrenching case. It'is local to me, so I've been hearing
about this for over 10 years, and I agree with your assessment of this.
We must be neighbors. I agree with Bart also.

As far as I am concerned, there should be a law protecting incapacitated people
from their spouses if their spouse has demonstrated that he or she isn't
playing the role of a dedicated husband or wife any longer. He shouldn't be
considered her next of kin anymore and shouldn't have any
say so at all.

No one knows for sure what Terri Shaivo wanted in advance of this happening.
Everyone keeps throwing the "die with dignity" thing out there...but what if
she wasn't that kind of person? What if the way she felt about this all, prior
to ending up incapaciated, wasn't that she wanted to die with dignity? What if
she loved her family so much that all she would need and want out of her life
was to be able to look deep into her husband's eye, hear her mother's
comforting voice, and feel her father's powerful touch, for as long as she
possibly could? What if she is all bottled up inside right now, struggling for
someone to help her learn to sit, eat, talk, laugh? They showed her on the
news, turning her head and looking into her mother's eyes, smiling. What gives
any doctor the right to tell anyone that she wasn't looking into her mother's
eyes thanking her from the bottom of her heart for fighting for her right to
live? Thanking her for trying to get her the help she so desperately wants
right now?

She didn't have a living will and she can't express her feelings about this all
right now, just like a newborn baby who is born with a developemental
disability. We don't say "Oh poor baby, oh well, too much of a burden for me,
just let it starve while I go out and make another one." That is exactly what
her husband is doing. He wants her to starve and has given up on her, living
his life with another woman and children.

And maybe the doctors are right. Maybe she really has no brain activity, which
I find hard to believe since she breathes on her own. But even if that was the
case, since no one can venture deep into her mind, what gives anyone the right
to take away the possibility that with the proper rehabilitation and therapy,
she could gain some skills back?

Hell, at this point, all I would want is to be taught to sit, smile, and kick
my leg hard enough to knock that idiot on his butt. Even if I was in a bed
doing it.

Kimber
Randall Bart
2003-10-17 04:31:24 UTC
Permalink
The following story is false. The part about starving her to death is
true. The parts about her being comatose or vegetative is a lie. She is
conscious. She recognizes people. She reacts to people. This is how the
Nazi Holocaust started -- killing those untermensch who couldn't fight
back.

AP Story at:
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=533&ncid=533&e=20&u=/ap/20031016/ap_on_re_us/comatose_woman
Short link: http://schiavo20031016.cotut.com

Feeding Tube Removed From Comatose Woman
Thu Oct 16, 5:59 AM ET

Add U.S. National - AP to My Yahoo!

By MITCH STACY, Associated Press Writer

PINELLAS PARK, Fla. - One of the nation's longest and most bitter
euthanasia battles approached an end with the removal of a feeding tube
from a comatose woman, but her parents clung to hope for a legal reversal
and Gov. Jeb Bush promised to help.

The tube was removed Wednesday from Terri Schiavo, 39, at the Tampa
Bay-area hospice where she has lived for several years. She was expected
to
die within 10 days.

Schiavo's parents have been locked in a legal battle with her husband,
Michael Schiavo, who says she would rather die than be kept alive
artificially. She has been in a vegetative state since 1990, when her
heart
stopped because of what doctors said may have been a chemical imbalance.

Bob Schindler said he and his wife, Mary, went in to see their daughter
shortly after the tube was removed and gave her a kiss and hugged her. He
said his daughter was not as responsive as they claim she normally has
been.

"She's OK for the next couple of days," said Suzanne Carr, Terri Schiavo's
sister. "We are just going to try to work some magic."

"I have to believe that somebody is doing something, somewhere to stop
this
judicial homicide," she said.

Wednesday's removal came just hours after Bush told the Schindlers that he
was instructing his legal staff to find some means to block a court order
allowing Michael Schiavo to end his wife's life. But even the family's
lawyer has said their legal remedies have been exhausted.

"I am not a doctor, I am not a lawyer. But I know that if a person can be
able to sustain life without life support, that should be tried," the
governor said, adding the "ultimate decision of this is in the courts."

Family members were heartened by the governor's last-minute effort.

"The family has not given up hope on Terri," the woman's brother, Bob
Schindler Jr., said following a meeting with Bush. "We have spoken to the
governor, and he hasn't given up hope either."

Michael Schiavo and his attorney George Felos were not immediately
available for comment after the removal of the tube.

Several right-to-die cases across the nation have been fought in the
courts
in recent years, but few, if any, have been this drawn-out and bitter. The
tangled case has already been handled by 19 separate judges and the tube
has been ordered removed three times. At one point 2001, the tube was
removed for two days before a judge ordered feeding to be resumed based on
new evidence.

About 100 protesters stood outside the hospice Wednesday in what has
become
a 24-hour vigil staged by advocates for the disabled and anti-abortion
activists.

Schiavo's family members believe she is capable of learning how to eat and
drink on her own and say she has shown signs of trying to communicate and
could be rehabilitated.

Doctors have testified that the noises and facial expressions Terri
Schiavo
makes are reflexes and do not indicate that she has enough mental
capabilities to communicate with others.

The Florida Supreme Court (news - web sites) has twice refused to hear the
case, and it also has been rejected for review by the U.S. Supreme Court
(news - web sites). On Tuesday, a Florida appeals court again refused to
block removal of the tube.

The Schindlers first sought to remove Michael Schiavo as his wife's
guardian in 1993 after a falling out over her medical care. They say he
now
has a conflict of interest because he is engaged to another woman and they
have a child together.

The family has also leveled allegations that Michael Schiavo has abused
Terri Schiavo, although the accusations have not been substantiated.

Michael Schiavo has refused to divorce his wife, saying that he fears her
parents would ignore her desire to die if they became her guardians.

AP Story at:
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=533&ncid=533&e=20&u=/ap/20031016/ap_on_re_us/comatose_woman
Short link: http://schiavo20031016.cotut.com
--
RB |\ © Randall Bart
aa |/ ***@RandallBart.spam.com ***@att.spam.net
nr |\ Please reply without spam I LOVE YOU 1-917-715-0831
dt ||\ They're Murdering Terri Schiavo http://www.terrisfight.org
a |/ Multiple sclerosis: http://www.cbc.ca/webone/alison/
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LisaViger
2003-10-17 08:21:43 UTC
Permalink
Subject: Re: Terri Schindler Schiavo
Date: 10/17/2003 12:31 AM Eastern Standard Time
The following story is false. The part about starving her to death is
true. The parts about her being comatose or vegetative is a lie. She is
conscious. She recognizes people. She reacts to people. This is how the
Nazi Holocaust started -- killing those untermensch who couldn't fight
back.
Glad you brought this up. I think it's atrocious, horrific,
unconstitutional..... and nothing short of court sanctioned murder.
There is another bit of info missing from the article...... she will be
denied WATER as well as food. She will not die of starvation but of
dehydration. And, it will likely be in a significantly shorter preiod of time
than 10 days.
She is brain damaged because... "at the age of 26 she collapsed at her
home in St. Petersburg, Fla., and oxygen to her brain was cut off for several
minutes. The incident, which has never been satisfactorily explained and has
recently raised a host of unanswered questions, left the young woman
incapacitated and severely brain-damaged."

The husband received $1.3 M from a lawsuit stemming from the injury that
caused her brain damage (NOT coma, NOT vegatative state).... which was supposed
to pay for medical care and rehabilitation......but has not. He refuses to
divorce her and allow her parents to take over responsibility for her medical
care, and has two children by another woman. There is also (if I am
interpreting another article correctly) another $750K that will go to her
husband upon her death.
Which are all really moot points, since it is a *court* that has ordered
she be killed.
And, you are absolutely correct. This IS the way Hitler got started......
getting rid of (killing) any "mental and/or physical defectives." And that was
well before he started on Jews, Gypsies, homosexuals, Jehovah Witnesses, just
plain dissenters, etc.
There's a photo of the "comatose, vegatative" woman here (as well as sign
a petition to Jeb Bush):

http://www.terrisfight.org/

The husband has not allowed any physcial or mental rehabilitation since
she was injured 11 years ago. There are many reasons to believe she could
benefit from rehabilitation and be able to eat and drink on her own..... at the
very least. (In fact, the court has ordered that NO oral feeding or hydration
be allowed since it does appear she would be able to do so on her own since she
can control/swallow her own saliva).
The video you may have seen on television was "..... secured in violation
of a court order, shows Terri responding to her name, trying to sit up when her
mom calls out to her, her eyes widening with joy at the sound of her parents
voices. In other sections of it - it shows Terri giggling with delight when her
mother gives her a hug and tries to speak to her mom when her mom asks her
questions."

If you want to at least voice your opinion on this to the people
responsible, e-mail and fax numbers are below.... snail mail letters are better
but in this case would arrive too late:
****************
Governor Jeb Bush:
email: ***@jeb.org,
fax: (850) 922-4292,
or call his office at (850) 488-4441
******************
Attorney General Charlie Crist
(850) 414-3990
Fax: (850) 487-2564
e-mail: ***@oag.state.fl.us
*********************
State Attorney Bernie McCabe
(727) 464-6221
********************
Senator Bob Graham (D)
(813) 228-2476
or
(202) 224-3041
Fax: (202) 224-2237
email: ***@graham.senate.gov
**************
Senator Bill Nelson (D)
(850) 942-8415
Fax: (850) 942-8450
or
(202) 224-5274
****************
The Honorable George W. Greer (the judge who ordered the most recent removal of
tube, and prevented any attempts at normal fedding/drinking)
(727) 464-3933
e-mail: ***@co.pinellas.fl.us
******************
The Honorable David A. Demers
Chief Judge of 6th Judicial Circuit
St. Petersburg, FL 33701
(727) 582-7882
Fax: (727) 582-7210
e-mail: ***@co.pinellas.fl.us
*************************
Also, this case has received surprisingly scant coverage in the media. You can
also contact national and Flordia media to encourage more, and more accurate,
coverage.

Florida Newspapers:

Mr. Bill Levesque, The St. Pete Times -- ***@sptimes.com

The St. Pete Times -- ***@sptimes.com

Mr. Dave Sommer, The Tampa Tribune -- ***@tampatrib.com

The Tampa Tribune -- ***@tampatrib.com

970 WLFA AM Radio -- ***@970wfla.com
************************
National TV Media

Hannity & Colmes
Sean Hannity
email: ***@foxnews.com

Hannity & Colmes
Alan Colmes
e-mail: ***@foxnews.com

At Large with Geraldo Rivera
e-mail: ***@foxnews.com

FOX & Friends
e-mail: ***@foxnews.com

The O'Reilly Factor
e-mail: ***@foxnews.com

World Net Daily -- e-mail: ***@worldnetdaily.com

There is also a long list of FL legislators you can contact (I'll post
that next).

And, please pass along the story and contact info as you see fit.
Remember, Hitler wouldn't have even gotten started if people had spoke up
at the very beginning..........

Sincerely,
Lisa
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=533&ncid=533&e=20&u=/ap/2
0031016/ap_on_re_us/comatose_woman
Short link: http://schiavo20031016.cotut.com
Feeding Tube Removed From Comatose Woman
Thu Oct 16, 5:59 AM ET
Add U.S. National - AP to My Yahoo!
By MITCH STACY, Associated Press Writer
PINELLAS PARK, Fla. - One of the nation's longest and most bitter
euthanasia battles approached an end with the removal of a feeding tube
from a comatose woman, but her parents clung to hope for a legal reversal
and Gov. Jeb Bush promised to help.
The tube was removed Wednesday from Terri Schiavo, 39, at the Tampa
Bay-area hospice where she has lived for several years. She was expected
to
die within 10 days.
Schiavo's parents have been locked in a legal battle with her husband,
Michael Schiavo, who says she would rather die than be kept alive
artificially. She has been in a vegetative state since 1990, when her
heart
stopped because of what doctors said may have been a chemical imbalance.
Bob Schindler said he and his wife, Mary, went in to see their daughter
shortly after the tube was removed and gave her a kiss and hugged her. He
said his daughter was not as responsive as they claim she normally has
been.
"She's OK for the next couple of days," said Suzanne Carr, Terri Schiavo's
sister. "We are just going to try to work some magic."
"I have to believe that somebody is doing something, somewhere to stop
this
judicial homicide," she said.
Wednesday's removal came just hours after Bush told the Schindlers that he
was instructing his legal staff to find some means to block a court order
allowing Michael Schiavo to end his wife's life. But even the family's
lawyer has said their legal remedies have been exhausted.
"I am not a doctor, I am not a lawyer. But I know that if a person can be
able to sustain life without life support, that should be tried," the
governor said, adding the "ultimate decision of this is in the courts."
Family members were heartened by the governor's last-minute effort.
"The family has not given up hope on Terri," the woman's brother, Bob
Schindler Jr., said following a meeting with Bush. "We have spoken to the
governor, and he hasn't given up hope either."
Michael Schiavo and his attorney George Felos were not immediately
available for comment after the removal of the tube.
Several right-to-die cases across the nation have been fought in the
courts
in recent years, but few, if any, have been this drawn-out and bitter. The
tangled case has already been handled by 19 separate judges and the tube
has been ordered removed three times. At one point 2001, the tube was
removed for two days before a judge ordered feeding to be resumed based on
new evidence.
About 100 protesters stood outside the hospice Wednesday in what has
become
a 24-hour vigil staged by advocates for the disabled and anti-abortion
activists.
Schiavo's family members believe she is capable of learning how to eat and
drink on her own and say she has shown signs of trying to communicate and
could be rehabilitated.
Doctors have testified that the noises and facial expressions Terri
Schiavo
makes are reflexes and do not indicate that she has enough mental
capabilities to communicate with others.
The Florida Supreme Court (news - web sites) has twice refused to hear the
case, and it also has been rejected for review by the U.S. Supreme Court
(news - web sites). On Tuesday, a Florida appeals court again refused to
block removal of the tube.
The Schindlers first sought to remove Michael Schiavo as his wife's
guardian in 1993 after a falling out over her medical care. They say he
now
has a conflict of interest because he is engaged to another woman and they
have a child together.
The family has also leveled allegations that Michael Schiavo has abused
Terri Schiavo, although the accusations have not been substantiated.
Michael Schiavo has refused to divorce his wife, saying that he fears her
parents would ignore her desire to die if they became her guardians.
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=533&ncid=533&e=20&u=/ap/2
0031016/ap_on_re_us/comatose_woman
Short link: http://schiavo20031016.cotut.com
--
RB |\ © Randall Bart
nr |\ Please reply without spam I LOVE YOU 1-917-715-0831
dt ||\ They're Murdering Terri Schiavo http://www.terrisfight.org
a |/ Multiple sclerosis: http://www.cbc.ca/webone/alison/
LisaViger
2003-10-17 08:24:33 UTC
Permalink
From http://www.terrisfight.org

"The following is a form letter you can use in contacting the Florida
Legislators and Junior Senators. We will try to have an online form programmed
soon that does the work for you and are working hard to get it done quickly. In
the meantime, please refer to the email list below for appropriate email
addresses."

Dear Representative:

In November 2002, Judge Greer of Pinellas County once again sentenced Theresa
Schiavo (Terri) to die of starvation based on his opinion that Terri is in a
persistent vegetative state (or PVS). On June 6, Judges Altenbernd, Fulmer and
Stringer issued a decision upholding Judge Greer’s starvation ruling.

Under Florida law, for Terri to be sentenced to death by starvation, a PVS
condition must be in existence. In Florida, PVS is defined by statute as a
"permanent and irreversible condition of unconsciousness in which there is the
absence of voluntary action or cognitive behavior of any kind [and] an
inability to communicate or interact purposefully with the environment."

Clearly, the evidence Judge Greer relied on to make his death decision does not
comply with Florida Law. Furthermore, there are more physicians on record with
the court stating that Terri is not in a PVS condition than are physicians
stating that Terri is in a PVS condition.

More evidence contradicting Greer’s findings can be found in a sworn
statement given by a noted speech pathologist declaring that Terri is
definitely not in a persistent vegetative state and that she is trying to talk.

If that were not enough, there are video tapes of Terri (at
www.terrisfight.org) showing her responding to her family members and to
commands given her by three doctors who examined her just prior to Judge
Greer’s latest death verdict.

THE VIDEO TAPES ARE PRESENTLY APPEARING ON NATIONAL TELEVISION. THEY ARE
EVOKING OUTRAGE AMONG VIEWERS BECAUSE TERRI’S COGNIZANT CONDITION IS SO
OBVIOUS

These citizens, dominated by a majority of Floridians, have made their feelings
known by signing upwards to 19,000 petitions denouncing Judge Greer’s
starvation death order. They are indignant because they recognize that Terri
Schiavo is in a disabled state, not in a PVS state. They are angry that the law
of our state has been blatantly dismissed by a biased judge.

I would respectfully ask for your commitment on behalf of Ms. Schiavo. Please
share this information with the Governor and beseech his immediate
intervention, either instructing the Attorney General to assign the case to an
unbiased judge or by ordering an investigation into the injuries suffered by
Terri as possible foul play. Evidence suggests that physical abuse may have
caused Terri’s present disability.

As a public servant of the great State of Florida, it is your duty to protect
our citizens to the fullest extent of your abilities. I eagerly await your
response.
Hou
***@myfloridahouse.com
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Kimber177
2003-10-17 09:33:35 UTC
Permalink
It is sickening to know that the courts put Terri's hands in a man who is on
vacation right now with his new girlfriend and their child.

If it is true, that he fears for his life right now, over trying to invoke the
best interest of the wife because he loves her so much, then why isn't he in
her room, holding her hand, with security standing outside her door?

Kimber
Fenisz
2003-10-21 02:22:49 UTC
Permalink
I forsee something happening to the baby boomer generation. I am dealing with
a mother who has dementia, other mental problems, and who has been a nightmare
for me. I chose to prolong her life 1 1/2 years ago when she had bronchial
pneumonia. The thought of killing her never entered my mind. All she wants to
do is die. She tells everyone that she wants to die. I ask myself by
prolonging her life if I have done her a disservice. I forsee a change in this
country's mores. Many of who have had to watch our parents die slow agonizing
deaths will elect doctor assisted suicide. I know that I would NEVER want to
sit in a nursing home wasteing away. I would want to choose my time of death
to a life of suffering. This isn't Hitler speaking. It is me electing my self
determination. As a direct result of a wasteing illness, I would choose my
time of death - a painless death free from suffering.
Fred in denver
Randall Bart
2003-10-23 06:05:31 UTC
Permalink
'Twas 21 Oct 2003 02:22:49 GMT when all alt.support.tourette stood in awe
Post by Fenisz
I forsee something happening to the baby boomer generation. I am dealing with
a mother who has dementia, other mental problems, and who has been a nightmare
for me. I chose to prolong her life 1 1/2 years ago when she had bronchial
pneumonia. The thought of killing her never entered my mind. All she wants to
do is die. She tells everyone that she wants to die. I ask myself by
prolonging her life if I have done her a disservice. I forsee a change in this
country's mores. Many of who have had to watch our parents die slow agonizing
deaths will elect doctor assisted suicide. I know that I would NEVER want to
sit in a nursing home wasteing away. I would want to choose my time of death
to a life of suffering. This isn't Hitler speaking. It is me electing my self
determination. As a direct result of a wasteing illness, I would choose my
time of death - a painless death free from suffering.
Fred in denver
The Terri Schiavo story is making a lot of headlines this week. I have
been following the story for several weeks. There's a link to her
parents' web site in my sig (http://www.terrisfight.org/) and I have been
forwarding news stories about this to my email list, the Church Of The
Unauthorized Truth (check the archives at http://yg.cotut.com or join at
mailto:***@cotut.com).

The Nazis stole people's humanity by telling the big lie. The big lie
here is that she is not comatose and she is not vegetative. She is
conscious and responsive. The advance of medical technology has forced us
to re-examine our concept of death, Thirty some years ago we changed the
definition of death from stoppage of the heart to stoppage of brain
activity. Without this change, we would currently be supporting millions
of brain dead corpses on life support. Very few now object to this
change, but those who objected back then warned of the slippery slope. We
are slipping.

I am not even upset about much of the slippage. We have "Do not
resuscitate" orders. People sometimes have no chance of recovery, yet are
revived from crisis after crisis to endure more days and months of
pointless suffering. So now we have DNR orders, but DNRs are often
ignored. A friend's father was quite upset when he found he been revived
in contravention of his DNR order.

I don't know if Michael Schiavo has a DNR on Terri, but it would have no
effect. She is basically healthy; she isn't having heart attacks to be
revived from. Or she was.

The other slippage is called persistent vegetative state. (Pedantic
aside: The word "vegetative" come from the Latin "vegetus" meaning
"lively".) Some people survive in comas for many years. In rare cases
people wake up after many years, but these cases are rare. Sometimes a
person seems to have normal brain function, yet remains unconscious. In
other cases a person has very little brain function and there is no hope
of recovery. This latter case is what was originally meant by the term
"persistent vegetative state".

Persistent vegetative state is not an absolute. Jerry Quarry was still
walking just a few months before he died, but he had less brain function
and was less responsive than Terri Schiavo. That brings us to an
important point: Society places too much importance on walking and
talking. If you can walk, or if you can talk, you are not in a persistent
vegetative state. If you can't walk and you can't talk and your brain
function is 1% below the norm, the courts have ruled that it is legal to
kill you.

Terri Schiavo cannot walk or talk, but she might be able with proper
therapy. Michael Schiavo won a lawsuit against Terri's doctor for
misdiagnosis. A substantial part of the cash settlement was earmarked for
rehabilitation, yet Michael Schiavo as trustee of that money has not
allowed it to be spent. He has not allowed anyone to attempt to
rehabilitate Terri. When she dies, he will inherit that money.

Above I used the word "Nazi". In my signature below I use the word
"murder". I use these words without hesitation. This situation is black
and white. The Nazi holocaust began with killing handicapped babies.
Then it spread to older handicapped people, whom the Nazis called "life
unworthy of life". The Nazis were the National Socialist German Worker's
Party. They were the branch of socialism which lived by the motto "the
workers control the means of production". The Nazis worshipped workers
and vilified the non-productive. They were opposed to the Communist
branch of socialism which says "from each according to his ability, to
each according to his need". Not that the Communists ever really lived by
their creed.

But even the Nazis believed that cripples should be killed humanely. In
this country condemned murderers must be killed humanely. And the SPCA
makes sure that animals are killed humanely. Terri Schiavo was condemned
to be killed by dehydration. It is to Terri Schiavo's extreme misfortune
that she is not in Nazi Germany, she hasn't killed anyone, and she is not
a dog.

Six days into Terri's dehydration, the Florida Legislature and Governor
Jeb Bush have stepped in. They should have acted before the feeding tube
was removed. They were just going to let her die until the public outcry
woke them up. This may be too late. Terri Schiavo was pretty healthy
before this, so she will probably pull through. But then this will go
back to court, as Michael Schiavo argues this is an unconstitutional
usurpation of judicial power. Legally he is probably right. This country
was founded by people who said that when the law is wrong it should be
opposed. Michael is retaliating against the Schindlers by not allowing
them to see Terri.

I can't let go of this story, but I recognize that many people don't want
to hear about it. If you want to follow this painful story with me,
subscribe to COTUT.
--
RB |\ © Randall Bart
aa |/ ***@RandallBart.spam.com ***@att.spam.net
nr |\ Please reply without spam I LOVE YOU 1-917-715-0831
dt ||\ They're Murdering Terri Schiavo http://www.terrisfight.org
a |/ Multiple sclerosis: http://www.cbc.ca/webone/alison/
l |\ DOT-HS-808-065 The Church Of The Unauthorized Truth:
l |/ MS^7=6/28/107 http://yg.cotut.com mailto:***@cotut.com
Fenisz
2003-10-23 08:18:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by Randall Bart
I can't let go of this story, but I recognize that many people don't want
to hear about it. If you want to follow this painful story with me,
Here is the ultimate simple affect. If Terri Schiavo's parents had to pay
for keeping her alive, they would have a different attitute. If they
eventually had to loose their liquid assets and then sell off their homes and
live a hand to mouth existance, I think they would have a different attitude.
If loosing their wealth meant that they would loose thier social status and
might find themselves out on the streets or were so poor that they were hounded
the rent collector and being threatened by eviction and homlessness, then her
parents would have a different attitude. Money is a key element in the issue.
If there is money to be obtained, many of these nursing institutions will do
whatever they can to keep the money comeing in - even if it means
ressesitateing some one who does not want to be ressesitated. Randall, Maybe
you have never experienced caregiver burnout. Liveing under one roof with your
mother for an extended period of time might do it. Especially if she had
macular degeneration and was demanding on you for something every 15 minutes.
I know, because this is what happened to me.
Fred in denver
Kimber177
2003-10-23 19:48:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by Fenisz
Here is the ultimate simple affect. If Terri Schiavo's parents had to pay
for keeping her alive, they would have a different attitute.
Michael Schiavo won a malpractice suit on Terri Schiavo's behalf about 10 years
ago. He walked away with $700,000. Next to none of that money has been spent
on Terri Schiavo. During the jury trial, he did not mention one single time
that Terri didn't wish to live by means of artificial support. Instead, he
agreed to remain married to her and use the money for Terri's rehabilitation.
Three months after he received the money, he put a DNR on her medical file and
has refused to seek rehabilitation for her ever since.

Do you think us Floridian's are just stupid or something? How about the rest
of the USA who are backing her parents? Here in Tampa Bay, we know first hand
what is going on. We have heard the actual court transcripts read to us on the
news, and talk shows. He didn't mind having his insurance pay for her medical
treatment when he flew her to California to have some type of electrodes placed
in her brain to help stimulate activity. He didn't mind putting her in therapy
in Dunedin Florida. But these events took place while he was fighting the
malpractice court battle. Once he won, they stopped.

Michael Schiavo now has a new family...a woman he refers to as his fiance, and
2 children by her. If a miracle were to happen and Terri was
rehabilitated...he wouldn't want anything to do with her. He is not spending
money on her medical bills because there aren't any medical bills right now,
and there haven't been for awhile. She is in a hospice center...state funding
and donations pay her medical bills.

If her parents were to assume responsibility for her, they would get the money,
well what is left of it, to put towards her rehabilitation...the money that is
now being spent paying for Michael Schiavo's attorney to help kill Terri.
After that money was gone, disability checks would kick in and so would
medicaid to pay for her rehabilitation.

Terri does not appear to be in a vegetative state. A child I saw at the
Children's hospital last week did. She was 4 and had fallen in a lake. She
was breathing on her own, occassionaly her eyes would open, her arm would lift
up. You could clearly tell these were reflex actions. The family is having a
terrible time deciding on what to do.

Terri closes her eyes when she sleeps. When someone wakes her up, she opens
her eyes. She breathes on her own. She turns her head to look at those who
are talking to her. She has cried when she talks her mom, she smiles and has
even let out a giggle at something funny.

Michael Schiavo even refused to allow Terri to receive her final Holy
Communion...just this past week, because of the tiny piece of Host that was to
be placed on her tongue. He didn't do this because he thought she might choke,
he did this because the courts ordered her not to be fed by any means.

Gov Bush stepped in late. I don't know what took him so long, and the law he
signed into action may not be constitutional...but who cares. This was the
only way for an outside guardian to be brought into the controversy. 4 days
from now, someone with only her best interest in mind will make all Terri's
medical decisions. They finally got Michael out...and that should have been
done long ago.

Kimber
LisaViger
2003-10-24 08:12:39 UTC
Permalink
Subject: Re: Terri Schindler Schiavo
Date: 10/23/2003 3:48 PM Eastern Standard Time
<snip>
Gov Bush stepped in late. I don't know what took him so long, and the law he
signed into action may not be constitutional...but who cares.
Hmm, although I agreed with the intervention, we all should care deeply
whenever lawmakers violate the Constitution. I think Gov Bush had several ways
he could have legally stepped in prior to the removal of hydration and
nutrition. He chose not to use them. It smacks of political grandstanding and
opportunism, which is ANOTHER slippery slope. But, I still feel we can deal
with any ramifications and I do believe one person's life is invaluable. Nice,
concise, complete explanation of the case, Kimber, btw :).

<This was the
only way for an outside guardian to be brought into the controversy. 4 days
from now, someone with only her best interest in mind will make all Terri's
medical decisions. They finally got Michael out...and that should have been
done long ago.
Kimber
Not necessarily. The judge is going to appoint Jay Wolfson as her guardian
ad litem. Wolfson is not exactly impartial. But, neither have any of the
others....
Let's look at the characters in this life and death drama: We have a
woman who was left brain damaged due to anoxia, causes unknown; Her husband,
who will be awarded, upon her death, what is left from a settlement resulting
from her brain injury; and George Felos, the "Right to Die" attorney who has
written one book on his experience with a dying woman and is working on another
about his experiences with Ms. Schiavo.
If we look deeper, the connections become more suspect. George Felos was
on the board of directors at Woodside Hospice when Ms. Schiavo was admitted in
2001. The rules for admission to a hospice are the client must be terminally
ill and have a prognosis of less than six months to live. Ms. Schiavo has never
been diagnosed as terminally ill. She has a normal life expectancy, barring
further sentences of forced death by dehydration. Why was Ms. Schiavo admitted
to this hospice? Why has she been kept there for almost three years?
Judge George Greer, who has made 95% of the rulings in this case, has
worked for eight years with County Commissioner Barbara Sheen Todd. Ms. Todd is
on the board of Woodside Hospice. Judge Greer accepted questionable testimony
from Mr. Schiavo and his family about his wife's desire to not live aided by
life support and has consistently ignored evidence introdued by Ms. Schaivo's
parents and their physcians.
Ms. Schiavo's "wish to die" was never mentioned during the settlement
trial in 1992, and never mentioned until Mr. Schiavo became involved with
George Felos in 1998. Dr. Peter Bambakidis, the physician who gave an
"impartial" opinion on the condition of Ms. Schaivo, has family connections
with George Felos. Judge Greer's associate, Judge Lenderman, is the brother of
Martha Lenderman, who is ALSO on the board of Woodside Hospice. Mary Labyak,
CEO of Woodside Hospice, is on the board of Choice for Dying which believes in
assisted suicide and is a proponent for allowing the handicapped to die. Are
all these connections to Woodside Hospice just coincidence?
It sounds like a synopsis for a Robin Cook novel, but it's real and it's
happening right there in Pinellas County. The conections bewteen the players
are as sinister as their goal.
Terri's Law is so incredibly limited in scope that it applies to hardly
anyone but Ms. Schiavo. I'm no fan of the Republicans or their tactics. But
what about the transparent conflict of interest that exists between all the
players in this macabre legal game? What about the conflict of interest between
Ms. Schiavo and the very people who want Ms. Schiavo to die? Where is the
outrage? Where is the investigation? Why has a very small group of people, all
connected and with the same agenda, been given the power to order a person
painfully dehydrated to death? That's a sentence that we do not give death row
inmates. We would be jailed if we did that to a farm animal, even one slated
for slaughter.
Yes, there's a shameful power grab going on here. Perhaps it includes the
FL legislature and the Governor, but it most certainly involves George Felos,
Judge Greer, Barbara Sheen Todd, Peter Bambakidis, Judge Lenderman, Martha
Lenderman, and Mary Labyak as well. Perhaps those connections need to be
investigated.....

Just MHO,
Lisa
Fenisz
2003-10-24 14:28:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kimber177
Michael Schiavo even refused to allow Terri to receive her final Holy
Communion...just this past week, because of the tiny piece of Host that was to
be placed on her tongue. He didn't do this because he thought she might choke,
he did this because the courts ordered her not to be fed by any means.
Gov Bush stepped in late. I don't know what took him so long, and the law he
signed into action may not be constitutional...but who cares. This was the
only way for an outside guardian to be brought into the controversy. 4 days
from now, someone with only her best interest in mind will make all Terri's
medical decisions. They finally got Michael out...and that should have been
done long ago.
Kimber
As much as I hate the Catholic church, I would never ever consider porhibiting
by mother from receiving her last communion from a priest. I have been forced
to give up my right to make medical decisions for my mother because a pair of
catholic interlopers who think they know better, have usurped my athority.
Because of this, mom has been subject to the side affects of some of the
neuroleptic drugs that they are giving her. I did practice the belief of
prolonging life. By doing so, My mother's mental illness and instability has
come back to haunt me.
Fred

LisaViger
2003-10-24 08:00:07 UTC
Permalink
Date: 10/20/2003 10:22 PM Eastern Standard Time
I forsee something happening to the baby boomer generation. I am dealing with
a mother who has dementia, other mental problems, and who has been a nightmare
for me. I chose to prolong her life 1 1/2 years ago when she had bronchial
pneumonia. The thought of killing her never entered my mind. All she wants to
do is die. She tells everyone that she wants to die. I ask myself by
prolonging her life if I have done her a disservice. I forsee a change in this
country's mores. Many of who have had to watch our parents die slow agonizing
deaths will elect doctor assisted suicide. I know that I would NEVER want to
sit in a nursing home wasteing away. I would want to choose my time of death
to a life of suffering. This isn't Hitler speaking. It is me electing my self
determination. As a direct result of a wasteing illness, I would choose my
time of death - a painless death free from suffering.
Fred in denver
Dear Fred,

I'm terribly sorry to hear of your mother's condition. You have my
greatest sympathy.
However, although there are cases where absolutely nothing can be done to
prevent undue suffering, in most cases we don't always have to be put into an
"either/or" situation..... either euthanasia or a painful existence. There are
other alternatives to "wasting away in a nursing home." If we insist on better
medical treatment (especially in geriatric pharmacology), there will be more
options available. If we settle for assisted suicide, that's what we'll get.

Lisa
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